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I've recently entered a rabbit hole of videos mocking sovereign citizens. One of the most common arguments they use is to contest jurisdiction, they claim that the US Constitution gives two types of jurisdiction, common law civil jurisdiction and admiralty and maritime jurisdiction, and repeatedly demand that the case be dismissed for lack of jurisdiction under or claim that the court seems to be operating under some 'secret jurisdiction'. Now, I'm fully aware that this is horse dung, and they often find out the hard way (via a 30-day stint in jail for contempt of court) that the court does have jurisdiction and will impose its judgments upon them.

I'm familiar with the concept of jurisdiction within the UK as there is a distinct separation of powers between the constabulary of England and Wales and, say, the Scottish police force. A Scottish constable can't pop south of the border and conduct duty in England as the powers granted to them are for within Scotland's borders only. The same with the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Both Northern Ireland and Scotland are part of the United Kingdom but they have no jurisdiction in England and Wales.

To get to my question: presumably, there is something within the constitution that allows cities and states to enact their own statutes and ordinances. If so, what within the constitution has officially devolved this power? It's got to be here somewhere, or have the sov cits got it right, and there doesn't seem to be any jurisdiction granted to state courts for these matters (I highly doubt it, but I'm not versed enough on the US Constitution to find it myself).

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  • "Both Northern Ireland and Scotland are part of the United Kingdom" Not exactly. England and Scotland are distinct countries, both of them are part of the umbrella known as the UK. (Wales is a principality, and don't ask about NI. ) So, its not a matter of "powers granted to Scotland" by England, or vice-versa
    – MikeB
    Commented Nov 21 at 14:22
  • Well, "both NI and Scotland are part of the United Kingdom" is absolutely correct. So is Sheffield, so is my back garden. You can't necessarily deduce that being part of the United Kingdom gets you any policing powers! FWIW you don't have to look to any abstract issues of devolution for this: powers of arrest for example are in the Policing and Crime Act 2017: legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/3/part/4/chapter/8. Any other justification for Scottish police not being able to arrest people in England is historical background and motivation. The current law just is what it is. Commented Nov 22 at 16:09
  • ... which is that if the Scottish police need someone arrested in England and Wales, then an officer of an English or Welsh police force can make that arrest without a warrant on "reasonable grounds for suspicion", which is the usual requirement, even though the alleged offence was committed in Scotland. Commented Nov 22 at 16:14

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State Authority Is Not Devolved From Federal Authority In The U.S.

if so what within the constitution has officially devolved this power as unfortunately not yet has any prosecutor or judge replied to one of these sov cit morons with "well article X section XYZ" does give states and cities the power to enact and judge someone on infractions for this issue.

The power of state and local governments in the U.S. is not "devolved" from the federal government. Instead, the limited powers of the federal government were ceded by state governments to the federal government.

The U.S. Constitution is supreme over all other documents and legislation in the United States. Federal legislation and treaties, if they are authorized by the U.S. Constitution, are also supreme over state and local law.

But, the states in the U.S. are actually the original part of the United States government (pre-dating the Declaration of Independence in 1776 in many cases). The federal government created by the U.S. Constitution (which also imposed limitations on U.S. states) is a layer of limited government imposed on top pre-existing state governments. This is consistent with the interpretive frame imposed by the 10th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution ("The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.").

The U.S. Constitution (1789) was originally viewed as a treaty between sovereign and independent U.S. states, just like the previous Articles of Confederation (November 15, 1777 effective March 1, 1781) between the states rebelling against Britain. In the period from the Declaration of Independence (July 4, 1776) until the Articles of Confederation took effect on March 1, 1781, and in the period of the American Revolution that preceded the Declaration of Independence, the people and states rebelling against Britain just cooperated with and trusted each other without any formal written agreement or governing document.

There are a lot of parallels to the relationship between the European Union, to which member countries ceded limited centralized authority, and its member nations. Nobody has to ask, for example, why France has the authority to punish crimes committed in France, even though the E.U. governing documents didn't "devolve" that power to France.

Thus, the authority of state governments in the United States is presumed and is primary, while the authority of the federal government is secondary and arises from the grant of power to it from U.S. states reflected in the U.S. Constitution.

The Source Of Plenary State Authority

Ultimately, state claims of authority are rooted in history and the reality on the ground.

The reality on the ground part, of course, is the largely uncontested ability of state law enforcement to use force to carry out the edicts of state judges and state laws, and the routine and habitual practice of law enforcement officers of obeying judge's orders, and the routine and habitual practice of judges usually making a good faith effort to carry out the law. Even people who knowingly break the law generally acknowledge without question that it is the law (except a tiny minority like sovereign citizen's movement members) and that the states have the authority to enforce it.

The presumed and plenary authority of U.S. states is not expressly granted to the states by the U.S. Constitution, because state governments already existed. Their authority comes from state constitutions, and in the case of states that joined the United States of America after the original 13 states (plus a few late ratifiers that were invited to join and contemplated of possible original states, but didn't ratify the constitution before it took effect, like Vermont) because were admitted to the United States by federal legislation admitting them to statehood, either from unincorporated land that belonged to the U.S. already, or by basically a merger of an existing independent republic (like Texas and Hawaii) to the U.S.

The states not admitted to the United States from unincorporated federal land secured their legitimacy, sovereignty, and authority primarily from European countries that claimed their legitimacy, sovereignty, and authority by conquest and by virtue of treaties with each other. See generally here.

These states also achieved this status by behaving is if they had it consistently for what in some cases was centuries before the United States came into being until no one fought them over this point anymore (the so called "Indian Wars" with the original possessors of North America continued until 1890 when every last Indian tribe had been defeated, destroyed, or surrendered by treaty)

The Equal Footing Doctrine, furthermore, says that all U.S. states, whether they are one of the original 13 states, or were later added to the United States, all have equal legal status and authority. So, even though most U.S. states were created by the federal government by federal legislation, they have the same status as logically prior to the federal government as the original states which actually predated the United States did.

States have plenary power (i.e. power unbounded except as specifically limited by law) authority to do anything that the U.S. Constitution, federal law (including treaties), and state constitutions do not prohibit them from doing. See, e.g., Neff, Nina "Popular Sovereignty and the Doctrine of Plenary State Legislative Power," 62 William & Mary Law Review Online 1 (2020). This universal assumption at the time that the U.S. Constitution was adopted is mentioned very early in U.S. Supreme Court case law. See, e.g., Gibbons v. Ogden (U.S. 1824).

State v. Local Governments

The U.S. Constitution does not distinguish between state governments and local governments except in some very narrow circumstances (primarily 11th Amendment sovereign immunity and the original jurisdiction of the U.S. Supreme Court, both of which are formally phrased as questions of federal court jurisdiction, and in the case of 11th Amendment immunity, an implied sovereign immunity because states are sovereign).

Instead, references to "states" in the U.S. Constitution are references to "state and local governments" and local governments are purely creatures of state constitutions and state law, with the rights given to them under state constitutions and state law.

The Source Of Judicial Authority

The authority a state and local judges to enforce state laws (and to enforce almost all federal laws that are not tax laws or criminal laws or patent laws or copyright laws), comes from state legislation authorized by the state constitution in a chain of authority that either predates the state joining the United States, or flows from the "organic act" forming the state in the first place from federal land.

The authority of federal judges to enforce federal laws (and state laws involving diversity of citizenship) flows from the U.S. Constitution and federal legislation.

Reflection

This is admittedly a bit complicated.

Sovereign citizens take advantage of the fact that this is a little complicated and requires some historical context to understand, which few people who deal with it day to day think about very often, to try to confound people with a false counter-narrative of their own devising that has no basis in reality.

A Footnote On The Origins Of Real Estate Title In The U.S.

Perhaps the most famous example of a recitation of the source of government authority and title comes from a presumably satirical exchange between a Louisiana lawyer and a finicky New York real estate lawyer back in the 1930s, that nonetheless captures the flavor of the prevailing legal theory, from a 1936 Wall Street Journal article as an example proffered in a book written by Alfred Reuel Horr, a Cleveland Chamber of Commerce president:

Questions as to flaws in title sometimes present investment difficulties. Lawyers are inclined to insist upon a complete abstract from which they can trace the ownership of land. An instance of caution and the ultimate of reassurance has recently come to light.

An attorney in Louisiana was hired by a firm in New York to trace the abstract of a deed to some property that the firm had purchased in the delta state. After tracing the deed back to 1803, the Louisiana lawyer sent the abstract to New York. He promptly receive in return a letter from the New York firm, stating that he had not traced the deed back far enough. The lawyer waited for a few days and then sent the following letter to New York:

"Dear Sirs:

I traced your deed back to 1803. Here it is complete. As you probably know, Louisiana was purchased from France in 1803. France had acquired Louisiana from the Spanish as the result of a successful war against the Spaniards. The Spanish acquired Louisiana as the result of the explorations of an Italian named Columbus. Columbus was financially backed by Isabella and Ferdinand. Isabella and Ferdinand were given permission for Columbus’ expedition by the Pope. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ. Christ is the Son of God. God made Louisiana."

(There are longer versions of his letter back out there.)

For what it is worth, the New York origins of the finicky lawyer in New York are not entirely surprising. New York State and New York real estate law extend back to its time as a Dutch colony in the 1600s, and chains of title going back all that far back aren't all that uncommon in New York real estate practice. I once did a title abstract in New York State that went all of the way back to when that particular parcel was owned by former President Millard Fillmore (before he was President) and well before then.

In Southern Colorado, property rights created when it was part of Old Mexico are still legally relevant. See Lobato v. Taylor (2002).

Most U.S. states, however, avoid these ancient inquiries into real estate title through the doctrine of adverse possession that makes events more than about two decades old mostly irrelevant to real estate title.

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    – Dale M
    Commented Nov 20 at 1:17
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It wouldn't matter if there was such a provision

@ohwilleke has comprehensively analysed how and why sovereignty in a federation like the United States or Australia is rooted in the states rather than the Federal government. In a unitary state like France or New Zealand, sovereignty is vested in the top-level government as it is in a devolved nation like the UK. In all of these, however, local governments have devolved powers granted to them by higher-level governments.

So, when faced with a sovereign citizen (which is not solely a US issue—magistrates in Australia and I'm sure the UK also have to deal with them), the judges can and do point to the provisions of state and local law that apply to the sovereign citizen, but the problem is that, at the extreme end, the sov cit just doesn't subscribe to the same collective fantasy that the rest of us do. Because, at the end of the day, law and society in general, is just a human-made construct.

The realpolitik is that sovereignty rests with the person or people who can impose their will on other people, by force if necessary, and extends only as far as they are able to do so. In our modern society, with police, courts, and prisons, that's not the sov cit. The problem for the sov cit is that they think it is.

A sov cit confuses political theory with actual politics. Many socialists and political scientists have constructed theories to explain societies and politics. Many philosophers have constructed theories to explain how an ideal society should work. For Plato, society would be perfect if everyone knew their place and just followed the benign dictates of the Philosopher-King - which showed that, for a clever guy, he didn’t know much about real people. More recent philosophers have come up with other ideas, like the social contract, much beloved of the sov cit.

The how and why of how we ended up with the systems we have are a better fit for politics or history, but the legal answer is that a functioning state does have both the legal authority and the practical power to impose its will on the individual; subject to the rules (laws, policies and procedures) that have been set. A state that can't do that isn't really a state.

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    We have sovereign citizens in France as well. They think that as long as they repeat "je ne contracte pas" (I do not enter into a contract -- because they consider that the government is actually a private company, just because it has a registration number like any legal person) they are immune to laws, taxes, etc.
    – jcaron
    Commented Nov 20 at 11:56
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    @jcaron I did not know that. Thanks for the insight.
    – ohwilleke
    Commented Nov 20 at 21:19
  • Sovereignty in the UK is not as simple as you suggest.
    – MikeB
    Commented Nov 21 at 14:29
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    @MikeB No, but it’s one sentence not a textbook.
    – Dale M
    Commented Nov 21 at 19:44
  • Presumably because I'm never going down that rabbit-hole, but I've never understood how the social contract helps sovereign citizens' case. Surely either they've accepted it (in which case they are irrevocably bound by the T&C's, they can't pick and choose and they can't withdraw other than by renouncing citizenship), or else they haven't (in which case they're de jure not citizens of the polity they declined. They're stateless randoms milling about in America for some reason, and should probably be deported). I assume they have a workaround that lets them write the contract, though ;-) Commented Nov 22 at 15:51
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When I first read the Constitution of the United States at the age of 12, one thing I found confusing is that there is NOT anything in it that gives states (or cities) any power. I was deeply ignorant then. The Constitution grants powers to the president, to the congress, and to the federal courts, and goes into some detail about the organization and functioning of those persons and things, and it is for that reason that I thought it should also say what powers the state governments have.

One must know the historical context. The governments of the thirteen states existed before the Constitution of the United States was written in 1787. Each had a constitution, enacted by the voters in the state, and each outlined the organization and powers of the legislature, the courts, and the executive authority (that last being called the governor of the state in nine of the thirteen states, the president of the state in three of them, and being a committee of three men in one of them).

Each state had its own system of laws, just as, for example, each country in Europe has one.

The Constitution of the United States was in no way intended to supersede those of the states; rather it was intended to specify the way in which the states were to be united under a federal government. The Constitution grants powers to the federal government and says that all powers of government that it does not grant to the federal government belong to the states.

Thus, for example, each state has its own criminal code, defining punishments for murder, theft, fraud, etc. In some (most) of the states a convicted murderer can be sentenced to death; in some (12 out of 50, maybe) there is no capital punishment. It is rare that a murder case is tried under federal rather than state laws. Criminal trials under federal laws usually are about things involving powers that the Constitution grants to the federal government. For example, the money system is federal, so the penalty for counterfeiting money is defined by federal rather than state laws.

Cities, counties, or other levels of government below the level of the state are granted their powers and duties by the constitution or (more usually, I think?) the statutory laws of the particular state. But state governments are not assigned their powers and duties from above at the federal level. They do such governing as they see fit to do, although they are constrained by some provisions of the Constitution of the United States. For example the Constitution forbids them to establish hereditary offices or create titles of nobility, or establish an official religion. That they govern as they choose without any powers or duties assigned from above is why it makes sense to call them states.

Court cases involving criminal law, tort law, contract law, property law, marriage, divorce, or child custody, or many other sorts of things, are tried in state courts under state laws, and do not involve federal laws, in something like (I suspect) 99% of cases. (But federal courts can try civil cases when the plaintiff and the defendant are from different states, provided at least (I think?) $75000 is involved, even if the case involves no federal laws.)

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  • This reminds me of the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. A terrorist planted a bomb in the local offices of the federal government, and it destroyed the building (and I think a couple of buildings across the street from it) and killed 168 people, a couple of dozen of them children. This was a premeditated murder for which the terrorist could have been sentenced to death under Oklahoma law. Eight of those killed were federal agents, and so the terrorist could be charged under federal law for those. It was thought that the accused could not get..... Commented Nov 20 at 19:55
  • ....an impartial trial in Oklahoma because the people of Oklahoma could not possibly set aside their feelings of shock and horror at the event. So he was charged under federal law for the murder of eight federal agents, and tried in another state, Colorado. He was sentenced to death and executed for the murder of those eight federal agents, and was never tried for the murder of the other 160 people. Commented Nov 20 at 19:57
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    "Court cases involving criminal law, tort law, contract law, property law, marriage, divorce, or child custody, or many other sorts of things, are tried in state courts under state laws, and do not involve federal laws, in something like (I suspect) 99% of cases" A breakdown of court case allocation (civil and criminal) between the federal and state courts can be found at the link. "97% of all civil cases were filed in state courts... 89% of ... cases filed in federal court were bankruptcies " en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
    – ohwilleke
    Commented Nov 20 at 21:23
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    From the same link, about 98% of criminal trials are conducted in state court.
    – ohwilleke
    Commented Nov 20 at 21:55

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